23 Jan 2013: Interview

Charting a New Course for
The U.S. and the Environment

After more than four decades as a leading environmentalist, Gus Speth is disillusioned with what has been accomplished. What’s needed now, he says in an interview with Yale Environment 360, is a transformative change in America’s political economy that will benefit both society and the planet.

by roger cohn

Time magazine once called him the “ultimate insider,” and indeed Gus Speth has had a long, distinguished career as an establishment environmentalist — a co-founder of the Natural Resources Defense Council, chairman of the Council of Environmental Quality in the Carter Administration, founder of the World Resources Institute, and, from 1999 to 2009, the dean of the Yale School of Forestry & Environmental Studies.

Gus Speth
Gus Speth
And so it might be surprising that Speth’s latest book, America the Possible: Manifesto for a New Economy, offers a bleak picture of what U.S. environmentalism has accomplished and calls for an overhaul of the nation’s political economy. “My conclusion is that working inside the system is insufficient,” he writes in the book’s preface. “We have to step outside America’s broken system of political economy and begin the difficult job of transforming it.”

In an interview with Yale Environment 360 editor Roger Cohn, Speth — who is now a professor at Vermont Law School — discussed the evolution of his own thinking on how to address environmental problems and his frustration with continued inaction on climate change. And he also talked about the important links he sees between economic fairness and environmental health; about why he is encouraged by new movements and lifestyles emerging in local communities; and about why he rejects what he calls America’s “growth fetish.”

“The first thing about growth is it doesn’t deliver,” Speth says, “and it detracts us and deflects us from investing in the things that really do need to grow — like jobs, like education, like green energy technology.”

Yale Environment 360: All of your books seem to look beyond the environment and examine very directly the social, political, and economic problems facing the country. Why have you felt the need to move outside the environmental arena, where you’ve worked your whole life, and focus on these broader issues?

Gus Speth: Well, ask yourself, ask your readers to ask themselves: What’s an environmental issue? What’s an environmental concern? Obviously things like air pollution and climate change and water supply and other things are certainly environmental concerns. But what if you say that environmental concerns are anything that has a significant impact on environmental outcomes, on the quality of the environment and what we’re able to do to protect the environment? I mean, that’s a perfectly plausible definition of what an environmental concern, of what an environmental issue, is. And once you do that, you have to appreciate immediately that American environmentalism has defined itself too narrowly.

What affects environmental outcomes? Well, obviously, the health of our politics. The strength of our democracy. The power of the corporations — our principal political actors right now — and the power of money in our politics. These are powerful influences on environmental outcomes, to say the least. And then there’s the level of economic security and fairness in society. We now have a situation where half the families in the country live paycheck to paycheck, not really saving anything. And about 40 percent of the families have incomes of less than twice the poverty level.

There’s tremendous economic insecurity. And yet what we as environmentalists want to do, fundamentally, is to get the prices right — to internalize these tremendous environmental externalities, get rid of the
There’s a deeper problem that has to do with the very way our political economy is wired.”
perverse subsidies like those in the fossil fuel area. To do that, you’re going to have to raise prices. And yet this is a society that is full of rising prices, and half the people can hardly pay the prices that exist now. In a world of this vast economic insecurity, how can you expect to make the kind of environmental progress that you need? Almost all the things that we want to do, somebody says, “Well, it will hurt the economy, it will raise prices, it will raise gas prices,” whatever.

These things affect environmental outcomes. And also there are our own values — our lifestyles — which often are not really discussed as a mainstream environmental issue. For a long time environmentalists took the position of not demanding big lifestyle changes. Well, they ought to be demanding that, because it has a big effect on environmental outcomes.

e360: Was there for you a turning point where you realized, or came to the conclusion, that looking at environmental issues too much in isolation just wasn’t going to deal with the problems we face?

Speth: Well, I started about a decade ago when I was dean of the Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies, trying to assess how much progress we’d made, looking at “how’s our environment?” And the first thing that you realize is that we’re losing. And in a major way. Certainly on the big global-scale issues, but also on a great many issues here at home. So, that led me to begin to look at other issues and to think more deeply than I had been — I’m afraid to say, or ashamed to say — at what’s really going on. How can we get stronger and stronger as an environmental community — with bigger and bigger organizations, and more and more money, and more and more members — and be on the cusp, after 40 years of that, of losing the planet? How in the world could that happen?

So you have to begin to ask deeper questions. And there are root causes of these problems. It’s not just that we didn’t do enough under the Clean Air Act last year, or that we need a new program to increase energy efficiency in households, or whatever. It’s much deeper than that. And while these reforms or steps are vital, there’s a deeper problem that has to do with the very way our economy, our political economy, is wired. It’s hard-wired right now to give priority to certain things, and it does a pretty good job of that, if you like those priorities. But it’s not wired to give priority to people, to place, and to the planet.

e360: So you’re really looking at a broad-based system change?

Speth: There are things that have to be done right now, before we’ll ever get a broad-based systemic change. We’ve got to do something about the climate issue — yesterday! But, over time, we’ve got to commit equal efforts to system change, to changing the very core values that are embedded in our system of political economy.

e360: How do we take the first steps for that?

Speth: There are two big steps that are staring us in the face, I think. One is the great possibility that we have right now — without Washington, without our politicians — to begin to bring the future into the present in our local communities around the country. And indeed, we see that happening: We see transition towns, we see community revitalization
GDP stands for grossly distorted picture, and it’s a very misleading measure of how well you’re doing as a society.”
efforts and new business forms — public-private hybrids, profit/not-for-profit hybrids, social enterprises, co-ops, public banking initiatives. There are all kinds of things where people are adopting new lifestyles in communities and neighborhoods. And this is happening across the country. It’s enormously encouraging, and it’s something we can all do. We can all have sustainable communities, where we define sustainability in a full spectrum, 360-degree way, so that it’s not just environmental sustainability, but it’s a restorative local economy — an economy that restores people, families, neighborhoods, and environment and ecosystems.

The other big thing we can do right now is in the wake of this election [in November] — with all the shenanigans that we saw, all the money sloshing around, and the efforts to suppress votes, and other things — we need a series of very powerful, pro-democracy political reforms to save our democracy from this creeping corporatocracy and plutocracy. We need to roll back [the U.S. Supreme Court decision on] Citizens United and do away with the Electoral College. We need to insist on fusion voting in all states so we can break the two-party duopoly. We need independently determined congressional districts. We need a system of election management that ensures that voters are secure and that all votes are counted properly. We need to do away with the filibuster... This kind of pro-democracy political reform is something that should engage a very broad spectrum of Americans.

e360: You talk in your book about America’s “growth fetish.” What did you mean by that, and is that necessarily a bad thing?

Speth: Two things: First: when I talk about growth in the book, I refer to GDP [Gross Domestic Product] growth, as most people do, and that’s very important. As you know, GDP stands for grossly distorted picture, and it's a very misleading measure of how well you’re doing as a society. But we use it all the time — we have this GDP fetish. Go back to 1980 and scan
There were some 60-some people with us in jail, and they wanted me to give a lecture.”
forward to today. During that time, the U.S. economy has doubled in size. Tremendous growth, some ups and downs. In 2008, a pretty big down. But we grew, I think, 125 percent during that period. What happened with all that growth? Well, inequality mounted back to a level we haven’t seen since the 1920s. Poverty mounted to an all-time high. Life satisfaction flat-lined. The environment took a tremendous loss — particularly in the climate area, but also in biodiversity and other areas. And now we’ve recovered GDP back to higher than it was before the recession in 2008, but we still have about 15 percent of the workforce unemployed, or underemployed, or dropped out of the labor force. What has all this growth brought us?

So the first thing about growth is: It doesn’t deliver, and it detracts us and deflects us from investing in the things that really do need to grow, like jobs, like education, like green energy technology, like modern infrastructure, and so on. We ought to be insisting through our governments that investments occur in these areas. This idea that somehow growing GDP is going to solve these problems and yield results in these areas is simply nonsense. And since it hasn’t happened, there’s no reason to suspect it will happen in the future.

e360: When you were head of the Council of Environmental Quality in the Carter White House, you issued a series of reports that came out that warned of global warming, and the need to start dealing with it. So, the lack of progress in tackling climate change in the past 30-plus years must be particularly frustrating to you.

Speth: Even back then, we knew enough about the science of climate change to understand that this was an existential threat, that it was tied to society’s fate, and that it needed to be faced with urgency — even back then. And we’ve done very, very little since then. It’s enormously frustrating, and it led me, and others who have become frustrated, to acts of civil disobedience — in this case, to protest the Keystone XL pipeline.

e360: You were arrested [by U.S. Park Police] in 2011 for engaging in an act of civil disobedience in Washington, D.C. over the Keystone XL pipeline. Can you explain what led you take that step? Time magazine once dubbed you the ultimate insider, and here you were going back to Washington to conduct an act of civil disobedience. Why?

Speth: Well, precisely because I — and many others — am at the end of my rope. We’ve tried everything, and honestly, the data has been clearly reported, and the science is about as scary as anyone can imagine. The numbers are flooding in, and it’s enormously frustrating. I think we all — everybody with good sense, and everybody with an ounce of caring about the children and grandchildren of this world — ought to be in the streets, ought to be engaging in civil disobedience, of a perfectly nonviolent, and hopefully humorous, type. We need to keep our sense of humor about all this. I love [climate activist] Bill McKibben, who was instrumental in getting me arrested. He always adds on a bit of humor to his talks.

e360: That was the first time you’d ever been arrested? When you were protesting the Keystone pipeline?

Speth: Yes.

e360: What was that experience like? You actually planned to get arrested?

Speth: We actually planned to pay a fine and walk away, which did not turn out to be the case. 350.org and other environmental groups had two weeks of protests and arrests planned. Anyway, they [the police] decided to use the first group of us to set an example to discourage the others. It didn’t
We’ll only do the right things if we appreciate the seriousness of the situation that we face.”
work, but the result was that they treated us pretty much like common criminals. It was, in effect, a traffic offense — a failure to move on upon request — and normally, it would be a $50 fine. But we ended up in a central cellblock in the D.C. jail for three days. We spent a lot of time in leg irons. Slept on stainless steel slabs without any bedding or cover or pillow or anything — just stainless steel. Ate baloney sandwiches — two a day — and water. We were fingerprinted, mug shots — I guess I have a record now. In the end they didn’t press any charges against us. They just opened the door and let us walk out after three days.

In fact, we had a high-spirited three days in the D.C. jail. There were 60-some-odd people there with us in jail, and they knew I was a professor, and they wanted me to give a lecture. So I gave a long lecture on the need for systemic change while there in the central cellblock in the D.C. jail.

e360: Do you see any meaningful hope for dealing with the issue of climate change — either here in the U.S., or on a global scale?


Off the Pedestal: Creating a
New Vision of Economic Growth

Off the Pedestal: Creating a New Vision of Economic Growth
The idea of economic growth as an unquestioned force for good is ingrained in the American psyche. But Gus Speth argues it’s time for the U.S. to reinvent its economy into one that focuses on sustaining communities, family life, and the natural world.
Speth: Well, I’ve been hopeful before, in 2007 and 2008 in particular, that something was going to happen — and before that as well. But I’m hopeful again. For a couple of reasons: One, what’s driving the issue now are very serious actual impacts, not projections, not the theory of climate change. What’s driving it now is that people are suffering. I was recently in New Mexico and saw the extensive fire damage that they’ve had. The coastal sea level rise is beginning to really impact, and the strength and force of hurricanes are being impacted by global warming. A lot of things are going on that are making people wake up. I think our politicians are going to have to respond.

e360: In your book, you present a litany of social and political and environmental problems and ills. Are you concerned that sometimes, in talking about this, you may sound a bit like a Jeremiah, a prophet of doom and gloom?

Speth: Not a bit. We’ll only do the right things if we appreciate the seriousness of the situation that we face. The book begins with a stark juxtaposition of the current situation in this country, and where we’re headed, and then it moves immediately to a depiction of a plausible and attractive world that we could still build for our children and grandchildren. And we have to have both. We have to have a realistic understanding of what we’re up against, where we are, and where we’re heading. And you also have to have a positive vision of what’s still plausible and be hopeful.

POSTED ON 23 Jan 2013 IN Business & Innovation Policy & Politics Science & Technology Science & Technology Europe North America 


This interview is 2,076 words in length, but not one of those words is "population." Earth Day Founder Gaylord Nelson said it was "phony to say you're for the environment but against restricting immigration," nearly 80 percent of which, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, is responsible for our population growth. The Census says at our current growth rate this nation's population will reach 436 million by 2050 and nearly 600 million by century's end.

Good luck to Prof. Speth.

Posted by Dave Gorak on 23 Jan 2013

I deeply appreciate and admire the life work of Professor Gus Speth. I equally admire the life work of Professor Paul Ehrlich, founder of Zero Population Growth who along with others wrote down the simple formula I=PAT.

Environmental impact equals population times affluence times technology. Each factor is important how many of us there are, our life styles, and the technology we use. What Professor Speth adds to the analysis is a critique of modern capitalism. Everyone should read his book “The Bridge at the Edge of the World”.

Posted by robert easton on 24 Jan 2013

There's a huge disconnect between Obama's finally including global climate change as an administration's priority and the potential approval of the Keystone pipeline, oil exploration off the Atlantic coast, oil exploration in the Arctic and tacit approval of shipping coal overseas. In fact the Keystone pipeline oil is likely to be shipped overseas after refinement.

So far, all we're seeing is lip service to climate change while encouraging business as usual because the emphasis is on jobs, no matter what kind or if people are trained and educated for them.

Cassandras have never been welcome in the world. So the urge to build, create and the wish
for better lives needs to be redirected away from consumerism and toward the positive aspects of simpler, cleaner, healthier lives assisted by technology. Quality in infrastructure, transportation, housing, food, need emphasis quality instead of quantity.

That emphasis can only come from large organizations with the ability to lobby politicians without the "woe is us" hand-wringing a big turn-off. And, there needs to be a profit motive to do anything. Especially if it needs a redirection and refocusing of our economy.

Posted by Herb Curl on 24 Jan 2013

Excellent interview. Prof. Gustave Speth is well known authority on environmentalism. I had the
privilege of interacting with him.

Dr. A. Jagadeesh Nellore (AP), India

Posted by Dr.A.Jagadeesh on 25 Jan 2013

All my admiration to Gus Speth, in Bolivia the same thing is needed and I am sure it is an American need!

Posted by Eduardo Arze Bastos on 25 Jan 2013

I do believe there are a few overwhelmingly important things to get a handle on quickly, and I
agree that population growth is one of them. But the one I have been devoting my life to move along is the supergrid. I believe that a supergrid can unlock the potential of renewable energy better than any other enabling technology (like energy storage, or a hydrogen economy). I'm disappointed not to have seen it mentioned, not just in this article, but anywhere on the e360 website!

Posted by Roger Faulkner on 25 Jan 2013

Gus Speth makes excellent points. Perhaps one of the core metrics of a new economy should be Net Entropy in contrast to GDP. Natural systems are extremely effective at minimizing entropy and organisms, populations, and ecosystems all tend to become highly resilient by virtue of maximizing the capture and reuse of energy and materials.

Our economic system does not differentiate between transactions that weaken the system and those that strengthen it. A car crash or a mining operation that leaves a toxic legacy both add to GDP the same way that buying a smart home thermostat or developing a.new biofuel technology does. War has been known to boost GDP more.directly than anything. However a family or a nation will fare differently based on their degree of resource efficiency and overall risk management and self reliance. Projects and products and technologies can be measured based on net entropy and this would differentiate those with sustainable and resilient long term effects, vs those which are extractive or degrading.

Posted by Wendi Goldsmith on 26 Jan 2013

Kudos to Gus Speth, bringing on the need to light a different fire under environmental aspirations to save the planet. It seems to me today that politically, the leaders of Canada and the U.S. have thrown the environment to the dogs, and the global objective now is to out-compete each other in fossil fuel production for overseas consumption, thereby corrupting other nations will to change, even as time runs out for all nations to unite in bringing global warming down.

The writing is on the wall that this generation has the last hope of curbing the tipping point, when we would lose this beautiful world as we know it.

So how can our governments be so fixated on a false world economy based on endless economic growth of production and consumption of often useless and harmful products for their own sake in a finite world? It is a dysfunctional system foreign to Nature's closed loop of life and death and renewal, in a give and take of existing energies. It seems to me the Earth cannot take much more of us without giving up, and the time has come that we have to change, and there is no time to lose.

Never mind rotten leadership! We the people all have to rethink what is truly worth having, and how enough is plenty, and to make our needs and our wants the same. We the people have to unite in fusion and a fission of change across the world, away from working against nature, to striving to work with her in everything we do, in a radical change of perspective and behavior. Just as the lowly caterpillar re-creates itself within a golden casket to emerge a being winged and free. This I believe is the spirit of the wild world dreaming in all its glorious manifestations, that would see us truly the crown of evolution, and not its demise.

And we have the wits and deep down the moral courage. Don't we?

Posted by Mary Russell on 29 Jan 2013

New approaches to addressing climate change and other environmental problems may help in the short term, but all will be for naught unless we transition to a steady-state economy.

Posted by Dick Wildermann on 29 Jan 2013

When Prof Speth took over as Dean of the Forestry School in the late 80's he told us we need to work with corporation to solve environmental problems. He traveled that path and has now come back with a valuable and insightful experience. No one can fault him for trying and having the courage to say we need another approach. I look forward to seeing his ideas of developing an alternative economic system as it the grow and foster a deeper level of change. Kudos to Speth, McKibben and the Sierra Club for showing new courage and leadership as the stakes get higher and higher.

Posted by Chris Pratt on 01 Feb 2013


Comments are moderated and will be reviewed before they are posted to ensure they are on topic, relevant, and not abusive. They may be edited for length and clarity. By filling out this form, you give Yale Environment 360 permission to publish this comment.

Email address 
Please type the text shown in the graphic.



An Amazon Tribe’s Deadly Fight
To Save Its Land From Logging


Green Highways: New Strategies
To Manage Roadsides as Habitat

From northern Europe to Florida, highway planners are rethinking roadsides as potential habitat for native plants and wildlife. Scientists say this new approach could provide a useful tool in fostering biodiversity.

True Nature: Revising Ideas
On What is Pristine and Wild

New research shows that humans have been transforming the earth and its ecosystems for millenniums — far longer than previously believed. These findings call into question our notions about what is unspoiled nature and what should be preserved.

Counting Species: What It Says
About Human Toll on Wildlife

By analyzing mitochondrial DNA, scientists now can make more accurate estimates of the numbers of individual species that existed centuries ago. What does it tell us about our impact on the natural world and about our own future?

Grisly Trend: Green Activists
Are Facing Deadly Dangers

With activists killed in Brazil, Cambodia, the Philippines, and elsewhere, 2012 may have been the worst year yet for violence against those working to protect the environment. So far, little has been done to halt this chilling development.


MORE IN Interviews

Republican Who Led EPA Urges
Confronting Trump on Climate

by christian schwägerl
William K. Reilly, a Republican and one-time head of the EPA, is dismayed that a climate change skeptic has been named to lead his former agency. But in a Yale e360 interview, he insists environmental progress can be made despite resistance from the Trump administration.

How Costa Rica Is Moving
Toward a Green Economy

by diane toomey
With nearly all its electricity generated from renewables, Costa Rica has now set its sights on decarbonizing the transportation sector. In an interview with Yale Environment 360, green-energy activist Monica Araya explains how her country can wean itself entirely off fossil fuels.

The Legacy of the Man Who
Changed Our View of Nature

by diane toomey
The 19th-century German scientist Alexander von Humboldt popularized the concept that the natural world is interconnected. In a Yale e360 interview, biographer Andrea Wulf explains how Humboldt’s vision helped create modern environmentalism.

From Obama’s Top Scientist,
Words of Caution on Climate

by elizabeth kolbert
As President Obama’s chief science adviser, John Holdren has been instrumental in developing climate policy. In an interview with Yale e360, Holdren talks about the urgency of the climate challenge and why he hopes the next administration will not abandon efforts to address it.

An Unusually Warm Arctic Year:
Sign of Future Climate Turmoil?

by fen montaigne
This year will almost certainly go down as the warmest on record in the Arctic, with autumn temperatures soaring 36 degrees F above normal. In a Yale e360 interview, climatologist Jennifer Francis explains why a swiftly warming Arctic may have profound effects on global weather.

Are Trees Sentient Beings?
Certainly, Says German Forester

by richard schiffman
In his bestselling book, The Hidden Life of Trees, Peter Wohlleben argues that to save the world’s forests we must first recognize that trees are “wonderful beings” with innate adaptability, intelligence, and the capacity to communicate with — and heal — other trees.

At Standing Rock, A Battle
Over Fossil Fuels and Land

by katherine bagley
The Native American-led protest against the Dakota Access pipeline has gained global attention. In an e360 interview, indigenous expert Kyle Powys Whyte talks about the history of fossil fuel production on tribal lands and the role native groups are playing in fighting climate change.

The Moth Snowstorm: Finding
True Value in Nature’s Riches

by roger cohn
Journalist Michael McCarthy has chronicled the loss of wildlife in his native Britain and globally. In an interview with Yale Environment 360, he talks about why he believes a new defense of the natural world is needed – one based on the joy and spiritual connection it provides for humans.

What’s Killing Native Birds in
The Mountain Forests of Kauai?

by diane toomey
Biologist Eben Paxton is sounding the alarm about the catastrophic collapse of native bird populations on the Hawaiian island of Kauai. His group's research has uncovered the culprit: disease-carrying mosquitoes that have invaded the birds' mountain habitat.

Exploring How and Why
Trees ‘Talk’ to Each Other

by diane toomey
Ecologist Suzanne Simard has shown how trees use a network of soil fungi to communicate their needs and aid neighboring plants. Now she’s warning that threats like clear-cutting and climate change could disrupt these critical networks.

e360 digest
Yale Environment 360 is
a publication of the
Yale School of Forestry
& Environmental Studies


Donate to Yale Environment 360
Yale Environment 360 Newsletter



About e360
Submission Guidelines

E360 en Español

Universia partnership
Yale Environment 360 articles are now available in Spanish and Portuguese on Universia, the online educational network.
Visit the site.


e360 Digest
Video Reports


Business & Innovation
Policy & Politics
Pollution & Health
Science & Technology


Antarctica and the Arctic
Central & South America
Middle East
North America

e360 VIDEO

A look at how acidifying oceans could threaten the Dungeness crab, one of the most valuable fisheries on the U.S. West Coast.
Watch the video.


The latest
from Yale
Environment 360
is now available for mobile devices at e360.yale.edu/mobile.


An aerial view of why Europe’s per capita carbon emissions are less than 50 percent of those in the U.S.
View the photos.

e360 VIDEO

An indigenous tribe’s deadly fight to save its ancestral land in the Amazon rainforest from logging.
Learn more.

e360 VIDEO

Food waste
An e360 video series looks at the staggering amount of food wasted in the U.S. – a problem with major human and environmental costs.
Watch the video.

e360 VIDEO

Choco rainforest Cacao
Residents of the Chocó Rainforest in Ecuador are choosing to plant cacao over logging in an effort to slow deforestation.
Watch the video.

e360 VIDEO

Tribal people and ranchers join together to stop a project that would haul coal across their Montana land.
Watch the video.