05 Jan 2012: Interview

Putting a Price on
The Real Value of Nature

Indian banker Pavan Sukhdev has been grappling with the question of how to place a monetary value on nature. In an interview with Yale Environment 360, he discusses the ways natural ecosystems benefit people and why policymakers and businesses must rethink how they assess environmental costs and benefits.

by roger cohn

How do you put a price on the value of nature? That’s the question Indian banker Pavan Sukhdev and his colleagues are seeking to answer in their international project on The Economics of Ecosystems and Biodiversity (TEEB), which published its latest report last month. The challenge, as Sukhdev sees it, is how to address the “economic invisibility of nature,” which allows the economic value of ecosystems to be ignored by governments and businesses.

Pavan Sukhdev
Pavan Sukhdev
In an interview with Yale Environment 360 editor Roger Cohn, Sukhdev, who heads a green consulting firm in based in India, cited crucial benefits from nature that are often overlooked, including the capacity of wetlands for filtering water, the role of forests in preventing erosion and flooding, and the importance of bees in pollinating crops. “When did the bees last send you an invoice for pollination?” he asks.

Sukhdev contends that the current tough economic times globally might be the right moment to promote awareness of the real value of natural systems. “If we think differently,” he says, “if we value natural capital, if we see its productive potential and its employment potential, we might have solutions in our hands.”

Yale Environment 360: You’ve been focused on the importance of putting a monetary value on nature and on ecosystem services. Can you explain what you mean by that?

Pavan Sukhdev: Well, partly it’s the challenge of addressing what I call the economic invisibility of nature, because nature provides a hell of a lot to us — whether it’s clean air, fresh water, or nutrients and water cycling for agriculture, or whether it’s disease prevention or recreation. There’s a lot coming to us free. These are goods and services which are not market goods and services. They’re in the nature of public goods. But the problem is that we are not in a situation of plenty anymore. We have been eating into this capital, so to speak, that’s providing us free, but valuable, services. We use nature because it’s valuable, but we lose it because it’s free.

As a society, we just got so entranced by this idea that value means market value. And we can’t seem to get over the fact that there’s a lot that’s valuable which doesn’t have a price. Now how do you get this inside people’s heads? I think that’s the challenge for my [TEEB] project... I hate the term “putting a price on nature,” because there’s more than that. It’s more about valuing nature.

e360: But you have, in some of the studies you’ve done, tried to put a monetary value on it. Can you give an example of an ecosystem service that should have a value placed on it, and how you would go about monetizing it? Give a couple of examples.

Sukhdev:Well, a slightly tongue-and-cheek one, if I may. It has to do with sanitation. Toilets. And this is about basically a sewage system for the city of Kampala, Uganda. Now as it happens, their sewage system in Kampala was a swamp — basically a large swamp of about 40 square kilometers — which the local administration at one point decided to
Nature has a value — it’s just that it’s not market-price value.”
convert into additional land by damming up the swamp and converting it to agricultural land. Until an economist pointed out that the value of this horrible mosquito-infested swamp, as a way of eating up the human sewage from the city of Kampala, was something like $2 million. The economist also pointed out that to build an alternative physical [sewage-treatment] plant would cost a huge amount of money and would cost another one-and-a-half-million dollars to run. And all this was being provided free by this swamp — the swamp was doing it for free.

When did the bees last send you an invoice for pollination? That’s a more global example where a group of researchers calculated the global value of pollination for food-bearing trees and various forms of agriculture to be of the order of $190 billion per annum. Billion. We are not talking about small numbers.

e360: And that has been an issue, of course, the collapse of bee populations.

Sukhdev: Correct. In fact, a few years back, I think the estimate was a loss of something like $15 billion of value here in the U.S., thanks to [bee-population collapse]. So these are, again, free services, but you really feel the cost of them if you lose them. We should put in these values and make people understand that when they’re making trade-off choices. If you’re thinking of it as a weighing scale, it’s not as if the pan on one side is empty. Nature has value — it’s just that it’s not market-price value.

e360: How do you realistically get governments and businesses to think this way and to start acting this way? It’s one thing to sit here and theoretically talk about it. How do you do that?

Sukhdev:Well, we found in the TEEB project that there’s actually a strong correlation between the persistence of poverty and the dying out of nature. Typically we find that the people who suffer the most when you lose forest, or you lose wetlands, are actually the poor. I mean, the forest is not theirs, but the poor farmer is the one who suffers from the flood or the drought. If the forest is not there, then it’s his goats and cattle who can’t go in and forage for leaf litter. If the forest isn’t there, it’s his wife that has to walk an extra ten miles to get fuel wood for the cooking. So it’s usually the poor
There are 20-odd countries where there is an interest in working out nature values.”
farmer and the poor pastoralist who are the sufferers of loss of nature.

By various estimates, there’s something like a billion to 1.2 billion people around the world who are still dependent on natural ecosystems for their survival. And we did economic projections for Brazil, India, and Indonesia and found that the costs of these ecosystem services are not huge if you compare them with the GDP of developed countries. But if you look at the poorest people, this is, like, 50 to 90 percent of their total livelihood income — all the stuff that comes to them free from nature. That’s its real value. So once governments get that logic, then attitudes do change.

e360: What countries are those that have been receptive to what you’ve been saying in the TEEB reports?

Sukhdev: Well, the ones who have actually sort of embraced the TEEB project, who actually started local implementations, are Brazil, India, and the rich ones you sort of expect — Norway, Germany, and the Scandinavian countries. And we are finding a very interesting set of developing countries like Georgia, where the president has just written us and the UN a letter saying, “Can you please assist with a Georgia TEEB study?”... I mean, there are about 20-odd countries where there is an interest in taking this forward and basically working out nature values. And there are some developed countries where work is really pretty advanced, like the UK, for instance. They’ve done a complete ecosystem assessment.

e360: What about business? Has business been as receptive as government?

Sukhdev: With business, it’s a lot more difficult, because business is driven by profits. It has to be by law. It’s about shareholder value. So you have to prove it on one of three counts. Either that they’re missing out on risks which they’ve not recognized — for instance, if BP had thought about the ecological value at-risk concept [before the 2010 Gulf of Mexico oil spill], then they might have come to the view that these pressure-sealing, sound-sealing caps — which close immediately whenever there’s a shock or a sound and are worth half a million dollars a piece — are actually a good investment. They’re an insurance policy against a huge ecological value at risk.

So sometimes companies can get it right because they understand risk. Sometimes they get it right because they see an opportunity, as in there is a carbon market, or an eco-certification market, or an eco-labeling market, or there’s a premium being paid on such and such. And sometimes it’s that you will have to disclose these impacts eventually anyway [in public and shareholder documents].

e360: Can you give some of the examples besides BP and oil where a type of company or a specific company would have to factor in and disclose something like that?

Sukhdev: Sure. Let’s take a construction company, for instance, which is using logs or wood. Now if it’s sourcing them sustainably, that’s fine. It’s probably worthwhile for them to disclose how little impact that has on ecosystems. But if it’s sourcing its logs and wood unsustainably, you need to disclose the total of forest impact.

For example, we did a study of the entire construction sector in China between the years 1950 and 1990 using data from China — correlating the drawing of wood from China’s forests, and working out what was the impact
The people who worked on the TEEB project agree that the economic invisibility of nature is a problem.”
on the Chinese people in terms of loss of nutrient value, disruption due to floods and droughts, loss of waterway value, and things like that, which are basically as a result of deforestation. To give you an example, in 1997, there was a severe drought. The Yellow River went dry for nine months. No water. Villages lost their entire livelihoods. 1998, a year later, the Yangtzee floods, and 5,500 people die after a lot of destruction. During the period from 1950 to 1998, there was a huge amount of cost.

So we calculated what the costs would have been if you were a construction company in China — how much would the cost be? — and then we converted that into what would have been the real price of wood in China had you accounted for these costs? And lo and behold, the answer was 250 percent higher.

e360: Wow.

Sukhdev: Another example is fresh water. Take the impact of the cotton industry in central Asia on fresh water and on the drying up of the Aral Sea, and the economics of that. There are many examples where at a company level, or at a sector level, you can calculate the impacts.

e360: A cynic might say that you actually in a sense devalue nature by putting a price on it because there’s no way of calculating the intrinsic value in nature. How do you respond to that?

Sukhdev: I respect that cynic, because that is a valid point and a genuine concern that’s been bothering us literally from the beginning. The people who worked on the TEEB project all agree that the economic invisibility of nature is a problem. But we also all agree that there’s a huge risk in blind monetization. And that’s not what we’re about. So when we talk about valuation, we see it as a human institution. And we know that there are societies, and there should be societies, that just value pristine nature because it’s a connection. It’s a spiritual connection.

In my country in India, there are sacred groves. Thousands, literally thousands of sacred groves where villages will just simply not touch that
There are societies that value pristine nature because it’s a connection. It’s a spiritual connection.”
piece of forest. They will not allow it to be touched because, you know, it’s their spirits and their ancestors and their deities that live there, and they’re concerned. Now, what’s the value of that sacred grove? Well, it’s infinity, because you have to kill them before they let you cut it. So society has valued it, in a sense, at a spiritual level. That’s valuation as well, right?

Then sometimes societies value it from the point of view of heritage, patrimony. A century or so ago when, you know, national parks were declared in the UK, in Yorkshire or in the Lake District, or here [in the U.S.] in Yosemite and places like that. There was a sense of patrimony, that this is extraordinary and we need to leave this as a bequest to our future generations. Well, do you think they’re putting calculators with economic numbers? Forget it. They just said, this is patrimony.

e360: You, in the TEEB report, did try to put a monetary value on the damage done to the natural world in a single year by human activity, and I think you put the damages somewhere between $2 trillion and $4.5 trillion. How did you arrive at a figure like that, and what accounted for some of the most costly and significant damage?

Sukhdev: What we did was to calculate all of the ecosystem service values and make estimates. For instance, how much is there in terms of eco-tourism? How much is there in terms of providing medicinal cures out of discovery of new remedies? How much is there in terms of bee-based pollination, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Literally a long, long list of values. And the biggest one was the carbon values — if you have a forest, and it’s being lost at a particular rate per annum, that is creating further emissions, or if you have a standing forest, it would provide carbon capture. If it’s being lost, it’s creating emissions, and those emissions have an economic cost.

e360: Your latest [TEEB] report came out last month, and you’ve been focused on this issue now and talking about it publicly at a time when the world economy has been tanking.

Sukhdev: That’s right.


Off the Pedestal: Creating a
New Vision of Economic Growth

Off the Pedestal: Creating a
New Vision of Economic Growth
The idea of economic growth as an unquestioned force for good is ingrained in the American psyche. But James Gustave Speth argues that it is time for the U.S. to reinvent its economy into one that focuses on sustaining communities, family life, and the natural world.
e360: Are people receptive to this message or this way of thinking now, or is this something that may have to wait for flusher times for people to really respond to it?

Sukhdev: The knee-jerk reaction is, “Oh God. This is not the time to talk about it. Let’s get jobs back.” I have a contrarian view. My point is that, look, when things are good, people don’t think of change. People only respond to the need to change when things are bad, and they’re struggling, and they want different solutions. Adversity opens the mind. And we have adversity. And therefore, minds must be opened...

Let’s work on a global green new deal because this is the time to communicate that there is a problem with the economic model. If we think differently, if we value natural capital, if we see its productive potential and we see its employment potential, we might have solutions in our hands.

Watch video

POSTED ON 05 Jan 2012 IN Business & Innovation Business & Innovation Policy & Politics Pollution & Health Science & Technology Sustainability Asia Europe North America 


It surprised me in the Sukhdev piece that your interviewer did not use the phrase "valuing ecosystem services," nor point out that the "economist" Sukhdev mentioned in his answer on the Uganda wetland was probably an ecological economist ("...Until an economist pointed out that the value of this horrible mosquito-infested swamp…was something like $2 million…"). "Pricing" nature is the focus area of ecological economics, and Yale e360 has done a few articles since 2008 about it, or that mention the concept. But the interviewer also didn't note that a reckoning had already been done of the cost to replace Nature's worldwide ecosystem services -- by an ecological economist team headed by Bob Costanza (U. of Vermont). That figure: about $30 trillion a year.

As ecological economics have been applied for more than 30 years now, to improve policy choices and program implementations worldwide, and their organization, the International Society for Ecological Economics (ISEE -- website here), gathers and presents the most current research in this area, may I suggest that you do one or more pieces on how and where it has been successfully used, and how its application is growing among policy makers? Since the first ecological economists once worked at World Bank (Herman Daly, David Batker and others), Sukhdev may even know them, and/or have worked with them.

Martin Westerman

Posted by Martin Westerman on 05 Jan 2012

I really like what Sukhdev is doing. It's a shame that this kind of thing is even necessary, but that's the world we live in. The free market can only truly work when everything has a price tag on it.

I will take exception with one thing he said. There's about 7 billion people who are still dependent on natural ecosystems for their survival, not a "billion to 1.2 billion."

Posted by Jesse English on 05 Jan 2012

One way to put such a price tag is to estimate how much it cost to produce a liter of potable water, a cubic meter of respirable air under North American standards of pollution, and so on about other services and goods that nature GIVES to all humans on this Earth.

Calculate then the value of the sum. You'll have a good approximation of the value of Nature.

Posted by Marc Brousseau on 06 Jan 2012

TEEB does excellent and important work on this topic, but I was shocked by the following remark that equates poor rural women ("his wife") with chattel ("his goats and cattle"). We all are well aware now that a grave error in development practice is to ignore female farmers as primary actors while focusing on their male counterparts, not to mention the astonishing lack of respect that this implies:

"... the poor farmer is the one who suffers from the flood or the drought. If the forest is not there, then it’s his goats and cattle who can’t go in and forage for leaf litter. If the forest isn’t there, it’s his wife that has to walk an extra ten miles to get fuel wood for the cooking. So it’s usually the poor farmer and the poor pastoralist who are the sufferers of loss of nature."

Posted by Cymie Payne on 09 Jan 2012

As Mahatma Gandhi said,THERE IS ENOUGH FOR EVERYBODY'S NEED BUT NOT FOR ANYBODY'S GREED. Let us not loot and pollute the nature. Trees won't eat away the fruits they produce nor oceans drink water they have.

Dr.A.Jagadeesh Nellore(AP),India
Wind Energy Expert
E-mail: anumakonda.jagadeesh@gmail.com

Posted by Dr.A.Jagadeesh on 10 Jan 2012

If you accept that humans are dependent upon some other living thing, such as ocean algae to produce oxygen, then you must accept that the ultimate value of nature is infinite. We can not live without it.

If you accept that, then you must accept that mathematically, any portion of infinity is infinity. Therefore, any portion of nature is infinitely valuable.

The bottomline is we don't know how much of nature we need to have working in order for out continued existance and neither do we know how much of nature, nature needs to continue plodding on. How many of its companion species does that algae need in order to continue producing oxygen?

Keep in mind that populations in nature take a very long time to wind down and for all ramifications to occur. For example, the introduction of honeybees to North America are still causing extinctions today of plants that had been dependent upon pollinating insects that have gone extinct because of the loss of a critical flower source of nectar that went extinct because of the loss of a different pollinator that occurred because of the introduction of the competing honeybees about 500 years ago. It takes a very long time for the ramifications of our actions to become fully apparent, often in unpredictable ways.

Aldo Leopold said it best. If you accept that nature is good, then every part of it is good (because we simply don't know enough about ecologic interdependency of the earth's living organisms to say otherwise). And again, "The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts."

I understand why many people feel it is important to valuate nature and applaud these efforts. But ecological economics requires information we simply don't have at this point. Therefore I suggest that valuation efforts are very useful, but that they should carry a caveat about the unknowns and ultimately infinitely valuation of nature and the earth as a whole.

Posted by Andy on 12 Jan 2012

Even though Mr. Sukhdev tried to explain that the TEEB effort is in valuing Nature or ecosystem services, both the interviewer and many of the comments revert to an automatic default position that value and price are equivalents.

The example of the sacred groves implies intangible worth and human appreciation of Nature. It seems to me that TEEB must characterize the ecological economy as a matrix of values that are inseparable and interdependent. So then the question becomes how does the human community fix a price --not for what Nature does to preserve and sustain life--but rather what is the price for the USE of this interconnected web? And what is the cost for maintenance of the ecosystem matrix?

This is such important work, which pushes human consciousness to shift its understanding of the Earth. I am interested in the progress.

Posted by Vicki on 07 Feb 2012

Comments have been closed on this feature.



A Scientist's Call for Civility
And Diversity in Conservation

The ongoing debate over how to value the natural world has become rancorous and counterproductive, says marine biologist Jane Lubchenco. It is time, she tells Yale Environment 360, for the dispute to end and for conservation efforts to become more diverse.

Green Highways: New Strategies
To Manage Roadsides as Habitat

From northern Europe to Florida, highway planners are rethinking roadsides as potential habitat for native plants and wildlife. Scientists say this new approach could provide a useful tool in fostering biodiversity.

True Nature: Revising Ideas
On What is Pristine and Wild

New research shows that humans have been transforming the earth and its ecosystems for millenniums — far longer than previously believed. These findings call into question our notions about what is unspoiled nature and what should be preserved.

Counting Species: What It Says
About Human Toll on Wildlife

By analyzing mitochondrial DNA, scientists now can make more accurate estimates of the numbers of individual species that existed centuries ago. What does it tell us about our impact on the natural world and about our own future?

Charting a New Course for
The U.S. and the Environment

After more than four decades as a leading environmentalist, Gus Speth is disillusioned with what has been accomplished. What’s needed now, he says in an interview with Yale Environment 360, is a transformative change in America’s political economy that will benefit both society and the planet.


MORE IN Interviews

How Science Can Help to Halt
The Western Bark Beetle Plague

by richard schiffman
Entomologist Diana Six is focused on the beetle infestation that is wiping out conifer forests in western North America. In an interview with Yale Environment 360, she explains why the key to combating this climate-related scourge is deciphering the trees’ genetic ability to adapt.

Why Brazil’s New Pledges On
Carbon Emissions Fall Short

by diane toomey
Brazil has won international acclaim for curbing deforestation. But Brazilian forestry expert Maria Fernanda Gebara says her country has not gone far enough in its pledges to cut carbon emissions and continues to have a dismal record on developing wind and solar power.

How 'Third Way' Technologies
Can Help Turn Tide on Climate

by richard schiffman
In a Yale Environment 360 interview, Australian scientist and author Tim Flannery explains how the development of technologies that mimic the earth’s natural carbon-removing processes could provide a critical tool for slowing global warming.

Rallying Hip Hop Culture For
A More Inclusive Climate Fight

by timothy brown
In an interview with Yale Environment 360, the Rev. Lennox Yearwood — a social and environmental activist and the head of the Hip Hop Caucus — explains why it’s vital that the climate and environmental movements become far more diverse.

One Scientist’s Hopeful View
On How to Repair the Planet

by diane toomey
Ecological crises may be piling up in a seemingly hopeless cascade, but Swedish scientist Johan Rockström says the next few decades offer an unparalleled opportunity to undo the damage.

Probing the Rich Inner Lives
Of the Planet’s Wild Animals

by diane toomey
Scientist Carl Safina has examined our steadily evolving understanding of the complex interactions among the more social members of the animal world. In an interview with Yale Environment 360, he talks about why it’s vital to our humanity to empathize more deeply with wild creatures.

The High Environmental Cost
Of Illicit Marijuana Cultivation

by diane toomey
Marijuana growers are ravaging forests in northern California to produce their lucrative crop. In a Yale Environment 360 interview, biologist Mary Power talks about the massive ecological footprint of marijuana growing and why nationwide legalization could help alleviate it.

How Can We Make People
Care About Climate Change?

by richard schiffman
Norwegian psychologist Per Espen Stoknes has studied why so many people have remained unconcerned about climate change. In a Yale Environment 360 interview, he talks about the psychological barriers to public action on climate and how to overcome them.

Why a Leading Indian Politician
Is Now an Environmental Hawk

by christian schwagerl
Former Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh believes the “cult” of unfettered economic growth has been ruinous for India’s environment. In an interview with Yale Environment 360, he talks about his vision of “green growth,” which he says is essential for his nation’s future.

Cloning a Mammoth: Science
Fiction or Conservation Tool?

by diane toomey
Biologist Beth Shapiro has published a new book that looks at the many questions – both technical and ethical – surrounding any attempt to revive extinct species. In a Yale Environment 360 interview, she explains why she believes new genetic technology could benefit critical ecosystems.

e360 digest
Yale Environment 360 is
a publication of the
Yale School of Forestry
& Environmental Studies


Donate to Yale Environment 360
Yale Environment 360 Newsletter



About e360
Submission Guidelines

E360 en Español

Universia partnership
Yale Environment 360 articles are now available in Spanish and Portuguese on Universia, the online educational network.
Visit the site.


e360 Digest
Video Reports


Business & Innovation
Policy & Politics
Pollution & Health
Science & Technology


Antarctica and the Arctic
Central & South America
Middle East
North America

e360 VIDEO

Tribal people and ranchers join together to stop a project that would haul coal across their Montana land.
Watch the video.


The latest
from Yale
Environment 360
is now available for mobile devices at e360.yale.edu/mobile.

e360 VIDEO

The 2015 Yale e360 Video Contest winner documents a Northeastern town's bitter battle over a wind farm.
Watch the video.

e360 VIDEO

A 2015 Yale e360 Video Contest winner captures stunning images of wild salmon runs in Alaska.
Watch the video.

e360 VIDEO

Food waste
An e360 video series looks at the staggering amount of food wasted in the U.S. – a problem with major human and environmental costs.
Watch the video.

e360 VIDEO

Colorado wildfires
An e360 video goes onto the front lines with Colorado firefighters confronting deadly blazes fueled by a hotter, drier climate.
Watch the video.


A three-part series Tainted Harvest looks at the soil pollution crisis in China, the threat it poses to the food supply, and the complexity of any cleanup.
Read the series.